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time variant impedence in a passive mixer (Read 40114 times)
macg84
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time variant impedence in a passive mixer
Apr 21st, 2009, 10:27am
 
Hello,

In the attached file there is a double balanced passive mixer, i read thet this mixe with a passive filter in the output it work in turn as a fileter. To verify this condidtion I have to evaluate the impedence at the input of this mixer (how you can see in the attachet file). but This impedence is time variant, how can I do to evaluate this impedence??
Thank you
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Passive_Mixer2.jpg
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pancho_hideboo
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Re: time variant impedance in a passive mixer
Reply #1 - Apr 21st, 2009, 10:44am
 
macg84 wrote on Apr 21st, 2009, 10:27am:
To verify this condidtion I have to evaluate the impedence at the input of this mixer (how you can see in the attachet file). but This impedence is time variant, how can I do to evaluate this impedence??

You can evaluate impedance averaged over one period of Local signal by invoking master steady state analysis using one tone large signal followed by slave small signal analysis.

If you use Agilent ADSsim(RFDE), use 1tone-HB-SS Analysis.
If you use Agilent GoldenGate, use 1tone-SSNA Analysis.
If you use Cadence Spectre, use PSS/PAC Analysis.
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« Last Edit: Apr 21st, 2009, 6:32pm by pancho_hideboo »  
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macg84
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Re: time variant impedence in a passive mixer
Reply #2 - Apr 21st, 2009, 11:00am
 
Thank you,

I cn use PSS+PAC analysis, but I have some question about this. To evaluate the time invariant inpedence. In the input port how do i have set "Source type"? Do i have ti set "PAC magnitude" equal to 1?
In PSS analyses how can choose the beat frequency? And the number of harmonics?
And in PAC analyses how can choose the MAXIMUM sideband?

Thank youuuuuuuuuuuu very much
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pancho_hideboo
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Re: time variant impedance in a passive mixer
Reply #3 - Apr 21st, 2009, 11:05am
 
macg84 wrote on Apr 21st, 2009, 11:00am:
In the input port how do i have set "Source type"? Do i have ti set "PAC magnitude" equal to 1?
"Source type=dc", any nonzero value for "PAC magnitude".

macg84 wrote on Apr 21st, 2009, 11:00am:
In PSS analyses how can choose the beat frequency?
And the number of harmonics?
And in PAC analyses how can choose the MAXIMUM sideband?

There is no beat frequency in PSS of Cadence Spectre.
http://www.designers-guide.org/Forum/YaBB.pl?num=1232036048/4#4

"fund for pss" is Frequency of Local Signal.
"harms for pss" and "maxsideband for pac" are depend on your needs.

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« Last Edit: Apr 22nd, 2009, 6:09am by pancho_hideboo »  
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macg84
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Re: time variant impedence in a passive mixer
Reply #4 - Apr 22nd, 2009, 2:26am
 
Ok thank you, but I have another quastion sorry...after the pss and pac analyses I can plot corrent and voltage, but I want print the impedence, hence V/I, I thought to use calculator to make this, using the comand Vf and If , but I don't get any results.
How can I do??

Thank youuuuuu very much
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pancho_hideboo
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Re: time variant impedance in a passive mixer
Reply #5 - Apr 22nd, 2009, 6:00am
 
macg84 wrote on Apr 22nd, 2009, 2:26am:
but I want print the impedence, hence V/I, I thought to use calculator to make this, using the comand Vf and If,
but I don't get any results.
You don't seem to understand Cadence ADE and Spectre.

vf and if of Calculator are for conventional AC analysis not for PAC analysis.

Use Direct Plot for PAC with "Add To Outputs" enabled.
Then modify "Expression" in "Setting Outputs".

You can also choose following methods.
 - Use Results Browser with Calculator for selecting PAC results and processing some math operations.
 - Write Ocean Script.

Your questions are no more than simple usage of very specific EDA vendor's tool.
Read documentations surely.
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« Last Edit: Apr 22nd, 2009, 9:45am by pancho_hideboo »  
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macg84
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Re: time variant impedence in a passive mixer
Reply #6 - Apr 22nd, 2009, 9:31am
 
Thank youuuuu...  I used results browser and saw how it works on   cadence cadence documentation, but in this documentation does not explain that when i choose e current node there is four choose  (PLUS,n,ns,ps) what is you meaning?  

Where can I find information about other ways to evaluate the impedance?

Thank youuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu
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pancho_hideboo
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Re: time variant impedance in a passive mixer
Reply #7 - Apr 23rd, 2009, 6:48am
 
It seems you could not understand the following. This is most easy method.
pancho_hideboo wrote on Apr 22nd, 2009, 6:00am:
Use Direct Plot for PAC with "Add To Outputs" enabled.
Then modify "Expression" in "Setting Outputs".


macg84 wrote on Apr 22nd, 2009, 9:31am:
I used results browser and saw how it works on   cadence cadence documentation, but in this documentation does not explain that
I can't understand meaning of your sentence. What do you mean ?  What do refer by "this" and "that" ? Undecided

macg84 wrote on Apr 22nd, 2009, 9:31am:
when i choose e current node there is four choose  (PLUS,n,ns,ps) what is you meaning?
I can't understand meaning of your sentence. Undecided
There is no current in node. Node is different from terminal.
Maybe an instance you choose in result browser has four terminals, (PLUS,n,ns,ps), although I can't understand meaning of your sentences.

macg84 wrote on Apr 22nd, 2009, 9:31am:
Where can I find information about other ways to evaluate the impedance?
Do you surely read documenations ? Huh

http://www.designers-guide.org/Forum/YaBB.pl?num=1237293628
http://www.designers-guide.org/Forum/YaBB.pl?num=1237382945/6#6
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« Last Edit: Apr 23rd, 2009, 9:46am by pancho_hideboo »  
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aaron_do
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Re: time variant impedence in a passive mixer
Reply #8 - Apr 23rd, 2009, 7:29pm
 
Hi,


for cadence spectre, the way I normally check the input impedance of a passive mixer would be to run PSS/PSP analysis. You can then plot the Z parameters or the Y parameters of the input port.


cheers,
Aaron
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Ken Kundert
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Re: time variant impedence in a passive mixer
Reply #9 - Apr 23rd, 2009, 11:47pm
 
You know, SpectreRF does not require the use of ports as sources. You can use either voltage sources or current sources too.

In addition, you might want to check out http://www.designers-guide.org/Analysis/diff.pdf for more flexible approach to building a testbench for differential circuits.

-Ken
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pancho_hideboo
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Re: time variant impedance in a passive mixer
Reply #10 - Apr 24th, 2009, 4:23am
 
aaron_do wrote on Apr 23rd, 2009, 7:29pm:
for cadence spectre, the way I normally check the input impedance of a passive mixer would be to run PSS/PSP analysis.
You can then plot the Z parameters or the Y parameters of the input port.
If you use PSP or QPSP of Cadence Spectre, you have to use "analogLib/port" which results in load at observation nodes.

Such loads at observation nodes are not preferable especially for interstage impedances measurements.
Here even if you increase port resistance, it can not be a solution.

I use my own impedance probe. For example, the following is single-ended impedance probe.
http://www.designers-guide.org/Forum/YaBB.pl?num=1221012939

In Agilent ADSsim, such impedance probe(Short_Probe or SP_Probe) is provided as standard probe.
http://edocs.soco.agilent.com/display/ads2009/SP+Probe+%28S-Parameter+Probe%29
But I can't use this ADSsim's probe in Cadence Spectre.
And this probe is restricted to only conventional SP-Analysis.

Instead I created my own impedance probe by using vsources, isources and ideal-transformer.
This impedance probe is valid not only for Agilent RFDE(ADSsim) but also for Cadence Spectre.
And this impedance probe is valid not only for conventional Small Signal AC Analysis but also for Small Signal AC Analysis subjected to Master Large Signal Analysis such as HB-SS of Agilent RFDE(ADSsim) and PSS/PAC of Cadence Spectre.

Assume cascaded connections of LNA, Mixer, Filter and IF_Amp, etc.
How do you measure any interstage impedances which see left and right ?

I can measure any interstage impedances using my own differential impedance probe.
Here I can evaluate Zleft_diff, Zleft_comm, Zright_diff and Zright_comm of any interstage at same time.


Ken Kundert wrote on Apr 23rd, 2009, 11:47pm:
You know, SpectreRF does not require the use of ports as sources. You can use either voltage sources or current sources too.
We all know any vendor's RF simulator except for very old one such as "SuperCOMPACT" does not require the use of ports as sources.
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« Last Edit: Apr 25th, 2009, 1:36am by pancho_hideboo »  
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macg84
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Re: time variant impedence in a passive mixer
Reply #11 - Apr 24th, 2009, 7:13am
 
Thank you all for your suggestions... Wink

This circuit represent a mixer filter, a band pass filter whose corner frequency are Flo+Frc and Flo - Frc, where Flo= is the local oscillator frequency while Frc= is the corner frequency of the two low-pass filter placed Outgoing the mixer.
I use the analysis PSS + PAC and then try to evaluate the voltage and current from the point 1, do not get anything, if I go to evaluate the node 2 get values, but I think that is not the correct analysis in this way.
I used lanalisi PSS + PSP and I went to select "direct plot form" PSP analyses and ZP, to measure the Z11  ipedence input. Also in this cases do not get good values, but really sneezing.:'(

How can I do??????
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macg84
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Re: time variant impedence in a passive mixer
Reply #12 - Apr 24th, 2009, 7:41am
 
In the circuit, I replaced Nmos with ideal switches, so that i can neglect the problem due to design these.

Help me please please, I do not know how to go on ...

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pancho_hideboo
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Re: time variant impedance in a passive mixer
Reply #13 - Apr 24th, 2009, 8:10am
 
macg84 wrote on Apr 24th, 2009, 7:13am:
I use the analysis PSS + PAC and then try to evaluate the voltage and current from the point 1, do not get anything,
Why do you evaluate voltage and current at point 1 ?

macg84 wrote on Apr 24th, 2009, 7:13am:
I used lanalisi PSS + PSP and I went to select "direct plot form" PSP analyses and ZP, to measure the Z11  ipedence input.
Also in this cases do not get good values, but really sneezing.:'(
What is "lanalisi" ?
S11, S12 and S22 of PSP results using your schematic have no meaning.
Only S21 might has some meaning value.
On the other hand, {Z11, Z12, Z21, Z22} and {Y11, Y12, Y21, Y22} have no meaning completely.

macg84 wrote on Apr 24th, 2009, 7:41am:
In the circuit, I replaced Nmos with ideal switches, so that i can neglect the problem due to design these.
Even if they are NMOS, there is no problem. Your problem exist in other.
First, usage of signal sources.
Second, setting of analysis.
Third, measuring impedance.

There are too many misunderstandings in your schematic regarding basic circuit theory you have.
So it is very laborious to correct all.

I'm not kind and patient enough for explaining such too basic issues.
Maybe other people who are kind hearted and very patient will help you.


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« Last Edit: Apr 25th, 2009, 1:09am by pancho_hideboo »  
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macg84
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Re: time variant impedence in a passive mixer
Reply #14 - Apr 24th, 2009, 8:27am
 
Sorry, Where can I find the useful material to learn??

However thank you very much for the other advice
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