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RF_Designer New Member Offline Posts: 9 Europe	Model for HJFET NE3514S02 transistor!! May 09^th, 2010, 5:46am Hello all, I 'm looking for HJFET NE3514S02 transistor model ! Is there a way for that ? or in which way can we make it ? Thank you in advance, Nass
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pancho_hideboo Senior Fellow Offline Posts: 1424 Real Homeless	Re: Model for HJFET NE3514S02 transistor!! Reply #1 - May 9^th, 2010, 8:39am http://www2.renesas.com/microwave/en/parameter/low_gaashj_dp.html
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RF_Designer New Member Offline Posts: 9 Europe	Re: Model for HJFET NE3514S02 transistor!! Reply #2 - Jun 16^th, 2010, 1:27am Thank you, I know the site and i had used the given model but it did not work in ADS.. Could you try if you have a time ?? Thank you in advance, M
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Geoffrey_Coram Senior Fellow Offline Posts: 1998 Massachusetts, USA	Re: Model for HJFET NE3514S02 transistor!! Reply #3 - Jun 16^th, 2010, 6:00am It works for me ... what problem are you having? Does ADS give you an error? Do you not believe the answer?
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RF_Designer New Member Offline Posts: 9 Europe	Re: Model for HJFET NE3514S02 transistor!! Reply #4 - Jun 17^th, 2010, 1:57am Oh, Have your tried to create a component and then making a DC Bias in dorser to display the I-V characteristic curve?? Cause when you use the netlist in ADS is works but i mean after.... In attached the obtained model... You can remark there is no ports...!!! Pls, Could you check it if you have time...??
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pancho_hideboo

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Re: Model for HJFET NE3514S02 transistor!!
Reply #5 - Jun 17^th, 2010, 2:04am

As I expected, simply you don't understand usage of netlist in ADS.

RF_Designer wrote on Jun 17^th, 2010, 1:57am:

In attached the obtained model...
You can remark there is no ports...!!!

It seems you don't understand usage of Agilent ADS surely.

There are two methods.
One is following. This is very simple and no symbol is required.
http://www.designers-guide.org/Forum/YaBB.pl?num=1266403928/17#17
http://www.designers-guide.org/Forum/YaBB.pl?num=1240322183/23#23

Second method.
Place port in your schematic and create symbol. But there is no model definition component in your schematic.

There is a Design Kit including this FET.
You had better use it since you don't understand ADS usage well.
http://www2.renesas.com/microwave/ads/nec_activelibraryv4.0.zip

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« Last Edit: Jun 17^th, 2010, 8:04am by pancho_hideboo »

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Re: Model for HJFET NE3514S02 transistor!!
Reply #6 - Jun 18^th, 2010, 2:50am

How i don't understand usage of Agilent ADS ??
That attached figure is wrong ?? I do not think so..!! cause i have tried with the other component that active bias circuit it works but with this transistor does not work.
Could you check it pls ? (i.e , the second method)
I have never used Netlist include, and i do know if it gives the same results!!!
how can we use this netlist include ? is there a method ?
For the nec_activelibraryv4.0.zip, yes i know it and i used it in ADs but if you compare the s-parameters with the S2P you will find a big difference, i.e, the given paramters do not fit with the S2P file so that why i want to use the given spice model to ADS.
Pls, Could you give more information...
I appreciate your help.

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pancho_hideboo

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Re: Model for HJFET NE3514S02 transistor!!
Reply #7 - Jun 18^th, 2010, 6:40am

RF_Designer wrote on Jun 18^th, 2010, 2:50am:

That attached figure is wrong ?? I do not think so..!!

That is a reason why I say you can't understand usage of Agilent ADS.

You can't understand what are necessary for FET component at all.

(1) There is no meaningful Net Label for FET symbol.
(2) FET symbol is "MOSFET_NMOS" in your schematic. This is wrong.
(3) Model refered by "MOSFET_NMOS" is unknown "x990x9".
(4) Even if "x990x9" is used, there is no model definition component for "x990x9"
(5) All values of L and C are unitless and factorless.
(6) If you want to use this as subcircuit, place port and create symbol.

You have to use followings if you want to make schematic.
http://edocs.soco.agilent.com/display/ads2009/EE+HEMT1+%28EEsof+Scalable+Nonline...
http://edocs.soco.agilent.com/display/ads2009/EE+HEMT1+Model+%28EEsof+Scalable+N...

RF_Designer wrote on Jun 18^th, 2010, 2:50am:

How i don't understand usage of Agilent ADS ??

I can't understand why you can say you are familiar with Agilent ADS, because you can't understand such easy things.

Read documents of Agilent ADS surely.
http://edocs.soco.agilent.com/display/ads2009/Importing+a+Netlist+File
You can't use "Netlist Import" for ADS's syntax netlist.

"Netlist Import" function is valid for netlists of the following.
Spice2G
Spice3
PSpice
HSpice �
Spectre

RF_Designer wrote on Jun 18^th, 2010, 2:50am:

For the nec_activelibraryv4.0.zip, yes i know it and i used it in ADs
but if you compare the s-parameters with the S2P you will find a big difference,
i.e, the given paramters do not fit with the S2P file

I will compare S-parameter calculated from "NE3514S02_v127.ads" with "NE3514S02v2_8-26_2_5.s2p" when I have spare time.

The attached figure is a method where subcircuit schematic is not required.

"NE3514S02_v127.ads" Quote:

simulator lang=ads

define NE3514S02_v127 ( D �G �S )
parameters Noise=

"EEHEMTM1":NE3514S02_v127 �_net125 _net127 _net126 Ugw=160 um N=1 Noise=yes _M=1

model EEHEMTM1 EE_HEMT1 Vto=-990.9 mV Gamma=39.57m Vgo=-346.6 mV Vdelt=0 Vch=593.2 mV Gmmax=84.53 mH \
� � Vdso=2 Vsat=711.5 mV Kapa=124.6 mS Peff=1.495 Vtso=-10 Is=28.39 pA N=1.633 Ris=5.777 \
Rid=1 mOhm Tau=2.861 psec Cdso=140.4 fF Rdb=1e9 Cbs=160 fF Vtoac=-1.005 Gammaac=42.32m \
Vdeltac=0 Gmmaxac=79m Kapaac=53.82 mS Peffac=14.47 Vtsoac=-10 Gdbm=20 uF Kdb=33.33 \
Vdsm=100 C11o=290 fF C11th=55.18 fF Vinfl=-1.058 Deltgs=2.939 Deltds=415.2 mV Lambda=50.75m \
C12sat=30.26 fF Cgdsat=12.72 fF Kbk=0 Vbr=15 Nbr=2 Idsoc=0.1 Rd=947.1 mOhm Rs=862.9 mOhm Rg=1.417 \
Ugw=160 um Ngf=1 Vco=-382.6 mV Vba=1 Vbc=301 mV Mu=1.836m Deltgm=354.5m Deltgmac=178.6m \
Alpha=300 mV Tnom=25 Rgtc=0 Rdtc=0 Rstc=0 Vtotc=0 Gmmaxtc=0 Gammatc=0 Vinfltc=0 Vtoactc=0 \
Gmmaxactc=0 Gammaactc=0 Xti=3 Kmod=1 Kver=1

L:Ld2 �_net120 D L=7.1 pH Noise=yes �
C:cds1 �S D C=4.2 fF
C:cds �S _net120 C=82.8 fF
L:Lg1 �_net101 G L=1.98 pH Noise=yes �
C:cgs �S _net101 C=78.7 fF
C:cgs1 �S G C=6.5 fF
C:cgd �_net101 _net120 C=11.63 fF
L:Ls �_net126 S L=100.3 pH Noise=yes �
L:Ld �_net125 _net120 L=561.6 pH Noise=yes �
L:Lg �_net127 _net101 L=583.5 pH Noise=yes �

end NE3514S02_v127

NE3514S02_v127:Q1 d g s

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test_NE3514S02.png

« Last Edit: Jun 19^th, 2010, 4:55am by pancho_hideboo »

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RF_Designer

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Re: Model for HJFET NE3514S02 transistor!!
Reply #8 - Jun 18^th, 2010, 10:49am

Thank you pancho_hideboo,
1. pls, how you have gotten NE3514S02_v127.ads ?
In the Nec site they provide just spice file which is the same as you provide but without
In the beginning : simulator lang=ads
In the end : NE3514S02_v127:Q1 d g s

I don't how you have got it ?

2. The Nec technologies provides SPICE parameters. Before i thought that is the same to use Net list Import. Thank you for the remark.

Really, you are great... I'm learning from your knowledge.

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pancho_hideboo

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Re: Model for HJFET NE3514S02 transistor!!
Reply #9 - Jun 18^th, 2010, 10:55am

RF_Designer wrote on Jun 18^th, 2010, 10:49am:

In the Nec site they provide just spice file

No, it is not SPICE Syntax Netlist. It is Agilent ADSsim's Syntax Netlist.

Nonlinear models for "Ansoft Designer" and BJT are SPICE Syntax Netlist.
But others are not SPICE Syntax Netlist.

Agilent ADSsim can read Agilent ADSsim's Syntax Netlist and Cadence Spectre's Syntax Netlist directly.

RF_Designer wrote on Jun 18^th, 2010, 10:49am:

which is the same as you provide but without
In the beginning : simulator lang=ads
In the end : NE3514S02_v127:Q1 d g s
I don't how you have got it ?

I added these two lines
But "simulator lang=ads" is not mandatory.

If you create symbol having three ports, D, G and S whose content is empty, you don't have to append "NE3514S02_v127:Q1 d g s".

Again see http://edocs.soco.agilent.com/display/ads2009/Importing+a+Netlist+File

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« Last Edit: Jun 18^th, 2010, 10:35pm by pancho_hideboo »

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pancho_hideboo Senior Fellow Offline Posts: 1424 Real Homeless	Re: Model for HJFET NE3514S02 transistor!! Reply #10 - Jun 19^th, 2010, 4:32am Red Curves : �S-parameter calculated from "NE3514S02_v127.ads(EE_HEMT1_Model ; EEsof Scalable Nonlinear HEMT Model)" Blue Curves : "NE3514S02v2_8-26_2_5.s2p(24. May 2006, VDS=2V, ID=5mA)"
Back to top	test_NE3514S02_2V_5mA.png « Last Edit: Jun 19^th, 2010, 9:25am by pancho_hideboo » Kita━━━━━━(ﾟ∀ﾟ)━━━━━━ !!!!! http://www7.plala.or.jp/ungeromeppa/flash/kita.html http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjIxGh55bMM&feature=related IP Logged

pancho_hideboo

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Re: Model for HJFET NE3514S02 transistor!!
Reply #11 - Jun 19^th, 2010, 4:34am

Red Curves : �S-parameter calculated from "NE3514S02_v127.ads(EE_HEMT1_Model ; EEsof Scalable Nonlinear HEMT Model)"

Blue Curves : "NE3514S02v2_8-26_2_5.s2p(24. May 2006, VDS=2V, ID=20mA)"

RF_Designer wrote on Jun 18^th, 2010, 2:50am:

For the nec_activelibraryv4.0.zip, yes i know it and i used it in ADs
but if you compare the s-parameters with the S2P you will find a big difference,
i.e, the given paramters do not fit with the S2P file

I don't think there are awfully large difference between them although fitting of nonlinear model to S-parameter model is not so good.

Try to change Vds, Idrain or Analysis temperature slightly in simulation of Nonlinear model.

Generally I believe S-parameter model not Nonlinear model since former is a raw data without approximation due to fitting.

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test_NE3514S02_2V_20mA.png

« Last Edit: Jun 19^th, 2010, 9:31am by pancho_hideboo »

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Re: Model for HJFET NE3514S02 transistor!!
Reply #12 - Jun 20^th, 2010, 6:44am

Thank you for the detailed explanation and sorry if i have taken up your time.
As you can see in the curve that you have done, when the frequency increase, the difference is more important espicially when you calculate the Roller fact for both methods. The same remark if you have used nec_activelibraryv4.0.zip...

Pls, how you have known the expression that you have added of the last line in the NE3514S02_v127.ads ? is always true for another component provided by manufacturer ?

What about BER? Do you have a good documents? i do know till know how can i proceed since i have just to work on RF receiver...!!! As you are familiar in that design, do you agree that in the RF receiver is important to simulate BER ?
Thank you in advance,
N

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pancho_hideboo

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Re: Model for HJFET NE3514S02 transistor!!
Reply #13 - Jun 20^th, 2010, 7:04am

pancho_hideboo wrote on Jun 18^th, 2010, 10:55am:

Agilent ADSsim can read Agilent ADSsim's Syntax Netlist and Cadence Spectre's Syntax Netlist directly.

Sorry. Currently Agilent ADSsim can also read Synopsys HSPICE Netlist directly.
http://edocs.soco.agilent.com/display/ads2009/About+HSPICE+Compatibility

RF_Designer wrote on Jun 20^th, 2010, 6:44am:

The same remark if you have used nec_activelibraryv4.0.zip...

It is very natural result since "nec_activelibraryv4.0.zip" include completely same file as "NE3514S02_v127.ads".
It seems you also don't understand structure of Design Kits of Agilent ADS.

RF_Designer wrote on Jun 20^th, 2010, 6:44am:

As you can see in the curve that you have done, when the frequency increase, the difference is more important espicially when you calculate the Roller fact for both methods.

S-parameter calculated from Nonlinear model is suspicious for high frequency.
For example, S12 is very suspicious for high frequency.

Again I believe S-parameter model not Nonlinear model since former is a raw data without approximation due to fitting.

Again surely see http://www.designers-guide.org/Forum/YaBB.pl?num=1273408947

RF_Designer wrote on Jun 20^th, 2010, 6:44am:

Pls, how you have known the expression that you have added of the last line in the NE3514S02_v127.ads ?
is always true for another component provided by manufacturer ?

It depends on contents of model files.
Read documents of Agilent ADS.

RF_Designer wrote on Jun 20^th, 2010, 6:44am:

What about BER? Do you have a good documents?
i do know till know how can i proceed since i have just to work on RF receiver...!!!

I can't understand meaning of this sentence at all.

RF_Designer wrote on Jun 20^th, 2010, 6:44am:

As you are familiar in that design, do you agree that in the RF receiver is important to simulate BER ?

I can't understand meaning of this sentence at all.
Create another new thread for your new questions with detailed decription and correct sentences using correct terminologies but without unfamiliar abbreviations such as "sof" and "pb".

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« Last Edit: Jun 20^th, 2010, 10:02am by pancho_hideboo »

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Re: Model for HJFET NE3514S02 transistor!!
Reply #14 - Jun 22^nd, 2010, 2:01am

I meant:
1. Do you have a good documentation on BER ?
2. For RF receiver, do you agree that it is important to have a BER parameter? how can we get it ? is it possible to get from simulation?
Also,
For the transistor part, is it important to have the layout of the transistor NE3514S02 or just S2P file is sufficient in order to use a co-simulation ?

Thank you in advance,

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