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pss+pnoise: cascaded system with 2 freq translations (Read 14153 times)
mixed_signal
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Re: pss+pnoise: cascaded system with 2 freq translations
Reply #15 - Sep 27th, 2014, 8:04am
 
Hi Ken,
I shall go through the manual in detail and try to figure out the issue.

Can you suggest me papers which analytically discuss how noise source modulation leads to cyclostationarity?
I want to quantitatively distinguish cyclostationary  noise contributions from
1. Noise source modulation
2. Noise transfer function modulation
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Ken Kundert
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Re: pss+pnoise: cascaded system with 2 freq translations
Reply #16 - Sep 29th, 2014, 5:19am
 
I do not have a good reference that covers cyclostationary noise analytically (actually there are the Gardner books on cyclostationary noise, but those are rather heavy). I have written something that presents cyclostationary noise from a more conceptual level (see Noise in mixers, oscillators, samplers, and logic: an introduction to cyclostationary noise). But fundamentally you cannot tell from the output whether a noise contribution to an output is cyclostationary because the underlying source is cyclostationary or the path from the source to the output periodically modulates the noise signal.

Have you approached Cadence and asked them for help?

-Ken
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Re: pss+pnoise: cascaded system with 2 freq translations
Reply #17 - Sep 29th, 2014, 7:16pm
 
Hi Ken,

Thank you very much for the link! Highly appreciate it. Yes I have approached them for help and shall update once I hear from them.

I have facing difficulty in understanding the attached paragraph from page 5 of your paper. What is meant by "analyzer has small effective input bandwidth"? Do you mean the scanning bandwidth of the analyzer which is swept across the spectrum?

Why would noise modulation not show up?
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Ken Kundert
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Re: pss+pnoise: cascaded system with 2 freq translations
Reply #18 - Sep 29th, 2014, 11:17pm
 
A spectrum analyzer effectively converts the signal of interest down to baseband and then passes it through a lowpass filter. Generally, we think of spot noise as the total power of a signal within a 1Hz bandwidth centered about the frequency of interest. In this case, the bandwidth of the lowpass filter will be 1Hz. Response time with a 1Hz filter is really slow, so the spectrum analyzer will allow you to specify the bandwidth of this filter. But lets assume that the BW of the spectrum analyzer is set to 1Hz.

Then if the modulation frequency is less than 1Hz, you will see the noise change on the screen at the modulation frequency. If instead, the modulation frequency is greater than 1Hz, as it usually is, then you will not see the noise change on the screen because it is changing too fast. Instead, you will see the time-average noise.

-Ken
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Re: pss+pnoise: cascaded system with 2 freq translations
Reply #19 - Nov 14th, 2014, 12:04am
 
Hi Ken,
I am in touch with Cadence folks and shall update when I get satisfactory explanation.

1. By the way, I can have access to a modern FFT based spectrum analyzer with fast detectors and I can get a real time snapshot of the spectrum unlike traditional sweeping ones. Do you think I shall be able to visualize  cyclostationarity in noise?

2. If cyclostationary noise is input to  2 sharp bandpass filters (1Hz BW) centered at f1 and f1+fLO and instantaneous output is plotted in time domain then what shall I get? I know magnitude and phases of the two components will be correlated. Will they be sines with amplitudes proportionally varying with time? How about their phase difference? Phase correlation is difficult to visualize since the phasors have different speeds.
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Ken Kundert
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Re: pss+pnoise: cascaded system with 2 freq translations
Reply #20 - Nov 14th, 2014, 6:00am
 
For a spectrum analyzer to see the cyclostationary nature of noise it must be synchronized to the modulation signal. Without that synchronization, you will always see some form of averaging.

-Ken
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