Forum
Forum
Verilog-AMS
Analysis
Modeling
Design
Theory
Books
Welcome, Guest. Please
Login
or
Register.
Please follow the Forum
guidelines
.
Sep 8
th
, 2010, 1:04am
Home
Help
Search
Login
Register
PM to admin
The Designer's Guide Community Forum
›
Simulators
›
RF Simulators
› CG and matching about mixer
‹
Previous topic
|
Next topic
›
Pages: 1
CG and matching about mixer (Read 215 times)
steven_l
New Member
Offline
Posts: 3
CG and matching about mixer
Jun 28
th
, 2010, 7:59am
I am confused about conversion.
1
http://www.designers-guide.org/Forum/YaBB.pl?num=1122952471/2#2
If I setup E in port, then in reality, the signal at the gate of the mosfet is 2E.
I wonder
if
the E means PAC mag of RF POIRT in cadence?
Why the gate of the mosfet is 2E?
Assume
the port is ac coupling to the gate and there is no match net work, which means signal at the right side and left side are different. One side is E, the other side is 2E.
Why?
how can a port with E can generate a 2E at the gate of mosfet?
Then Voltage gain of transient means Vout/Vin= Vout/E.
Why not Vout/2E?
Because the signal at gate is 2E~~
2
There are many voltage definition:
For PAC, PXF and Pniose, it is Vout/(E/2)
For transient and PSP, it is Vout/Vin, Vin is the signal voltage at a input node of DUT.
I wonder if the input node means the + terminal of port or vsin?
It seems that Vout/(E/2) is used for power based system, while Vout/Vin is for voltage based system or for low frequency.
As mixer is a RF block, it seems that the voltage conversion gain Vout/(E/2)is correct. Say, PAC plot
in Direct Plot
is correct.
But why “
http://www.designers-guide.org/Forum/YaBB.pl?num=1237656418/0”
says , CG plot
from Direct Plot
is wrong?
3
I parallel a 50 Ohm resistor with PR port and LO port, respectively.
This is for broadband resistive matching.
But as
http://www.designers-guide.org/Forum/YaBB.pl?num=1194006190
says, 50 Ohm does not one part of circuit. So the stimulation results are not correct.
But in reality,without 50 Ohm resisitor how can I realize broadband match?
My mixer is resistive mixer, input signal from tens of MHz to 2GHz. Can I use off-chip match network? But the imput impedance is time variant. How can I match the input impedance to 50Ohm for such a wideband?
Back to top
IP Logged
pancho_hideboo
Senior Fellow
Offline
Posts: 1356
Real Homeless
Re: CG and matching about mixer
Reply #1 -
Jun 28
th
, 2010, 8:06am
You use "E" as half of open circuit voltage of port.
Your usage of symbol "E" is not common.
Generally "E" is used like following.
See
http://www.designers-guide.org/Forum/YaBB.pl?num=1122952471/2#2
"E" is used as an open circuit voltage of port generally.
steven_l wrote
on Jun 28
th
, 2010, 7:59am:
I wonder
if
the E means PAC mag of RF PO
I
RT in cadence?
Yes,
if you mean "E" as half of open circuit voltage of port.
steven_l wrote
on Jun 28
th
, 2010, 7:59am:
how can a port with E can generate a 2E at the gate of mosfet?
This is because an input impedance of gate is very large.
steven_l wrote
on Jun 28
th
, 2010, 7:59am:
Then Voltage gain of transient means Vout/Vin= Vout/E.
No.
Conventional voltage gain is Vout/Vin not Vout/E,
even if you mean "E" as half of open circuit voltage of port.
steven_l wrote
on Jun 28
th
, 2010, 7:59am:
Why not Vout/2E?
Because the signal at gate is 2E
If an operation frequency is fairly low, Vout/Vin is almost same as
Vout/(2E)
,
if "E" is half of open circuit voltage of port.
steven_l wrote
on Jun 28
th
, 2010, 7:59am:
I wonder if the input node means the + terminal of port or vsin?
Yes, Vin is a voltage measured at that node.
steven_l wrote
on Jun 28
th
, 2010, 7:59am:
As mixer is a RF block, it seems that the voltage conversion gain Vout/(E/2) is correct.
Say, PAC plot
in Direct Plot
is correct.
No, you are misunderstanding.
Both gains are correct.
But Vout/Vin is more useful and practical gain definition than Vout/(E/2) in IC chip.
Here "E" is an open circuit voltage of port.
steven_l wrote
on Jun 28
th
, 2010, 7:59am:
But why
http://www.designers-guide.org/Forum/YaBB.pl?num=1237656418/0
says , CG plot
from Direct Plot
is wrong?
You are misunderstanding.
manfred wants to get Vout/Vin. But he gets Vout/(E/2) using "Direct Plot". I mean this is not correct.
Here "E" means an open circuit voltage of port.
steven_l wrote
on Jun 28
th
, 2010, 7:59am:
I parallel a 50 Ohm resistor with
PR
port and LO port, respectively.
What do you mean by "
PR
port" ?
steven_l wrote
on Jun 28
th
, 2010, 7:59am:
But as
http://www.designers-guide.org/Forum/YaBB.pl?num=1194006190
says, 50 Ohm does not one part of circuit.
So the stimulation results are not correct.
You are misunderstanding.
For your case, 50ohm resistors are part of your circuit. So the simulation results are correct.
See
http://www.designers-guide.org/Forum/YaBB.pl?num=1207009725/1#1
The followings are general notes for you.
- Always describe correct tool's name and vendor's name which you use as tool or simulator.
- Don't do multiple posts which are same content.
- Don't request source code or behavioral model without any efforts.
- There are many simulators which have analyses called as PSS, PAC and Pnoise.
- Describe in detail with using correct terminologies.
- Warnigns are different from Errors.
- ADS is not name of simulator.
- There is no tool which name is Cadence.
- Don't use Direct Plot of Cadence ADE blindly without knowing definition.
-
All gains in Direct Plot of Cadence ADE are "right", "true" and "practical" voltage gain.
- Don't mix up Simulation with Post Processing. They are completely different phase.
- MATLAB are different from Simulink.
- Learn measurements using actual instruments. Not "EDA Tool Play
Back to top
«
Last Edit: Jun 28
th
, 2010, 1:16pm by pancho_hideboo
»
Kita━━━━━━(゚∀゚)━━━━━━ !!!!!
http://www7.plala.or.jp/ungeromeppa/flash/kita.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjIxGh55bMM&feature=related
IP Logged
steven_l
New Member
Offline
Posts: 3
Re: CG and matching about mixer
Reply #2 -
Jun 28
th
, 2010, 10:11am
pancho_hideboo wrote
on Jun 28
th
, 2010, 8:06am:
steven_l wrote
on Jun 28
th
, 2010, 7:59am:
how can a port with E can generate a 2E at the gate of mosfet?
This is because an input impedance of gate is very large.
I can not understand.
In my opinion, if a RF port in cadence has E in PAC mag, it mean the port generate E Vp-p voltage to the gate of mosfet through AC capacitor.
In deed , the input impedance is very large. But why it is 2E instead of 3E or 4E. I can not understand it through intuition. Can I get the result from mathematical derivation?
pancho_hideboo wrote
on Jun 28
th
, 2010, 8:06am:
steven_l wrote
on Jun 28
th
, 2010, 7:59am:
Then Voltage gain of transient means Vout/Vin= Vout/E.
No.
Conventional voltage gain is Vout/Vin not Vout/E..
Which net represents Vin?
I am sorry. I do not know why I can not upload picture. So I can not describe my question clearly.
So I can only describe my circuit in following words.
Apploogized
Commonly, Vsin series a AC capacitor. And the AC capacitor series the gate of mosfet.
Does Vin net mean the net between AC capacitor and gate of the mosfet?
While port is made of a ideal source and a internal resistor. If PAC mag of the port is E, the internal resistor is 50 Ohm. I series the port and gate of mosfet through a AC capacitor. Then signal at the gate of mosfet is 2E( I can not understand until now).
In these two cases, source signal means the signal at the gate of the mosfet.
And the gate net is the input net. Also the gate signal is the input signal.
pancho_hideboo wrote
on Jun 28
th
, 2010, 8:06am:
steven_l wrote
on Jun 28
th
, 2010, 7:59am:
As mixer is a RF block, it seems that the voltage conversion gain Vout/(E/2) is correct.
Say, PAC plot
in Direct Plot
is correct.
No, you are misunderstanding.
Both gains are correct.
But Vout/Vin is more useful and practical gain definition than Vout/(E/2) in IC chip.
You say Vout/Vin is more useful and practical than Vout/(E/2) in IC chip.
I wonder does the CG in many IEEE paper represent Vout/Vin or Vout/(E/2)?
In my receiver, LNA, mixer and IF filter are all off chip block. The LNA and filter need to buy. The mixer is need to design in IC. So in the case Vout/(E/2) is more useful?
pancho_hideboo wrote
on Jun 28
th
, 2010, 8:06am:
steven_l wrote
on Jun 28
th
, 2010, 7:59am:
I parallel a 50 Ohm resistor with
PR
port and LO port, respectively.
What do you mean by "
PR
port" ?
Sorry PR is a mistake. I means 50 Ohm resistor paralleling with RF PORT and LO PORT.
pancho_hideboo wrote
on Jun 28
th
, 2010, 8:06am:
steven_l wrote
on Jun 28
th
, 2010, 7:59am:
But as
http://www.designers-guide.org/Forum/YaBB.pl?num=1194006190
says, 50 Ohm does not one part of circuit.
So the stimulation results are not correct.
You are misunderstanding.
For your case, 50ohm resistors are part of your circuit. So the simulation results are correct.
See
http://www.designers-guide.org/Forum/YaBB.pl?num=1207009725/1#1
You say 50 Ohm resistors are part of my circuit.
Yes, mixer is a wideband mixer.
But I do not want this resistor as possible as I can. It seem than match net work is the only way. But for a wideband, it may be a little difficult work. Any other good method?
Back to top
IP Logged
pancho_hideboo
Senior Fellow
Offline
Posts: 1356
Real Homeless
Re: CG and matching about mixer
Reply #3 -
Jun 28
th
, 2010, 10:27am
See
http://www.designers-guide.org/Forum/YaBB.pl?num=1231076499/11#11
steven_l wrote
on Jun 28
th
, 2010, 10:11am:
In my opinion, if a RF port in cadence has E in PAC mag, it mean the port generate E Vp-p voltage to the gate of mosfet through AC capacitor.
No, it is 4E[Vpp],
if you mean "E" as half of open circuit voltage of port.
But it is not appropriate to argue Vpp since PAC is a small signal analysis.
steven_l wrote
on Jun 28
th
, 2010, 10:11am:
In deed , the input impedance is very large.
But why it is 2E instead of 3E or 4E. I can not understand it through intuition.
Can I get the result from mathematical derivation?
Simply confirm port of 50ohm with load of 1Tohm.
If you do, you can understand.
steven_l wrote
on Jun 28
th
, 2010, 10:11am:
Which net represents Vin?
See the following again.
pancho_hideboo wrote
on Jun 28
th
, 2010, 8:06am:
steven_l wrote
on Jun 28
th
, 2010, 7:59am:
I wonder if the input node means the + terminal of port or vsin?
Yes, Vin is a voltage measured at that node.
steven_l wrote
on Jun 28
th
, 2010, 10:11am:
You say Vout/Vin is more useful and practical than Vout/(E/2) in IC chip.
I wonder does the CG in many IEEE paper represent Vout/Vin or Vout/(E/2)?
Generally Vout/(E/2) is not used.
Here "E" means an open circuit voltage of port.
steven_l wrote
on Jun 28
th
, 2010, 10:11am:
In my receiver, LNA, mixer and IF filter are all off chip block.
The LNA and filter need to buy.
The mixer is need to design in IC.
So in the case Vout/(E/2) is more useful?
No, you should use S21.
See
http://www.designers-guide.org/Forum/YaBB.pl?num=1266168115/1#1
I'm not kind and patient enough for explaining these too basic issues.
If you can not still understand, other people who is very kind and patient will help you.
Back to top
«
Last Edit: Jun 28
th
, 2010, 1:15pm by pancho_hideboo
»
Kita━━━━━━(゚∀゚)━━━━━━ !!!!!
http://www7.plala.or.jp/ungeromeppa/flash/kita.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjIxGh55bMM&feature=related
IP Logged
Pages: 1
‹
Previous topic
|
Next topic
›
Forum Jump »
» 10 most recent Posts
» 10 most recent Topics
Design
- RF Design
- Analog Design
- Mixed-Signal Design
- High-Speed I/O Design
- High-Power Design
- Mixed-Technology Design
Analog Verification
- Analog Functional Verification
- Analog Performance Verification
Measurements
- RF Measurements
- Phase Noise and Jitter Measurements
- Other Measurements
Modeling
- Semiconductor Devices
- Passive Devices
- Behavioral Models
- Transmission Lines and Other Distributed Devices
Design Languages
- Verilog-AMS
- VHDL-AMS
Simulators
- Circuit Simulators
»» RF Simulators
- AMS Simulators
- Timing Simulators
- System Simulators
- Logic Simulators
Other CAD Tools
- Entry Tools
- Physical Verification, Extraction and Analysis
- Unmet Needs in Analog CAD
General
- Tech Talk
- News
- Comments and Suggestions
- Opportunities
« Home
‹ Board
The Designer's Guide Community Forum
» Powered by
YaBB 2.2.2
!
YaBB
© 2000-2008. All Rights Reserved.
Opportunities
What's New
Links
Experts
Perspective
Submissions
Calculator
Trouble viewing this site?
Copyright © 2002-2009
Designer's Guide Consulting
. '
Designer's Guide' is a registered trademark of Designer's Guide LLC. All rights reserved.
Community
Web
Advertise on this site.
Give back to the Designer's Guide Community by shopping at
Amazon
. Purchasing products through this link helps to fund our activities and does not increase your cost.