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convert noise to jitter (Read 1300 times)
youchen
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Re: convert noise to jitter
Reply #15 - Oct 31st, 2008, 3:28pm
 
I would suppose also that there should be a field to specify the characteristics of the power noise, such as the amplitude and the frequency spectrum, because these should affect the amount of jitter. But I do not know how to do that.
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Frank Wiedmann
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Re: convert noise to jitter
Reply #16 - Nov 1st, 2008, 2:19pm
 
You always have to do a pss analysis first for the periodic small-signal analyses pac, pxf, and pnoise because the pss analysis determines the periodic operating point for these analyses.

If you want to simulate jitter, use sampled pxf with an absolute frequency sweep. As mentioned in http://www.designers-guide.org/Forum/YaBB.pl?num=1187679312/1#1, you convert the result to jitter by dividing it by the slope of the signal, in the same way as for tdnoise. As you correctly noted, the result is a transfer function, so there is no need (and no possibility) to specify an input spectrum.
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youchen
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Re: convert noise to jitter
Reply #17 - Nov 2nd, 2008, 11:00am
 
Hi Frank, to make sure I do it correctly, can I formulate it as follows? After 'sampled pxf' analysis, I got two tranfer function plot with respect to the Vdd and Vss. So, suppose I know that the power noise or substrate noise is characterized by a sinwave of 1mV and 1MHz, then I find the resulting noise at the output by mulitiplying 1mv with the gain at 1MHz. Finally, I divide the resulting noise by the slope, which gives me the jitter. Is that right? If it is, I was wondering what if the power or substrate noise is not well approximated as a sinwave, but with a certain spectrum, for example 100k to 1MHz, because in reality the power noise is very complicated? Thanks very very much.
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Frank Wiedmann
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Re: convert noise to jitter
Reply #18 - Nov 3rd, 2008, 1:09am
 
Yes, this is right. By the way, for the division by the slope, you can take the last part of the calculator expression in reply #9 as a reference.

In most cases, you will not know excatly in advance what the disturbances on the power supply will look like. The transfer functions should help you to identify and fix possible weaknesses in your design which might only exist in certain frequency ranges.

If you know the disturbances on the power supply exactly, the easiest way to simulate the resulting jitter is probably to model them with time-domain sources, do a transient analysis, and evaluate the result with the help of the eyeDiagram calculator function.
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youchen
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Re: convert noise to jitter
Reply #19 - Nov 3rd, 2008, 8:49am
 
Hi Frank, thanks. You also mentioned about jitter caused by intersymbol interference in other threads, what does that exactly mean?

Finally, if we want to consider the total jitter, do we simply add the individual jitter caused by device noise, power supply noise, and intersymbol interference (if we consider only the three sources)? I think it is reasonable since they should be independent from each other, at least between device noise and power supply noise.
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Re: convert noise to jitter
Reply #20 - Nov 3rd, 2008, 11:05am
 
Hi Frank. I have one more question. Is there a way to simulate jitter caused by both device noise and power supply noise in 'pnoise' analysis? thanks.
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Frank Wiedmann
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Re: convert noise to jitter
Reply #21 - Nov 3rd, 2008, 1:25pm
 
Regarding intersymbol interference, see for example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersymbol_interference (which is the first result of a Google search for this term, by the way).

Yes, you should add the jitter due to these three sources (because two of them represent deterministic jitter).

You could try to model the disturbances on the power supply with ideal noise sources connected to the supply. However, I am not sure if this would be a very realistic model of these disturbances; usually they do not really look like noise, in spite of often being called "power supply noise".
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Re: convert noise to jitter
Reply #22 - Nov 3rd, 2008, 4:03pm
 
Hi Frank, I guess I have to bother you with one more question. I get the transfer function plot from 'sampled pxf' analysis, but there seems to be a transfer function for each harmonic (from harmonic=-10 to harmonic=+10)? I guess I only need to look at the one for harmonic=0, right?

I wonder the 21 transfer functions (including harmonic=0) are obtained because of 'maximum sideband' set to 10? In 'pnoise', the 'maximum sideband' should be reasonably large in order to account for enough noise folding. What about the 'maximum sideband' in 'pxf' analysis, also be set very large?

In 'pss' analysis, a parameter is 'number of harmonics' (default set to 9 for shooting and 10 for harmonic balance). What does this parameter do in 'pss'? I feel that it is not important for a driven circuit, but useful for an autonomous circuit.
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Frank Wiedmann
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Re: convert noise to jitter
Reply #23 - Nov 4th, 2008, 1:10am
 
For sampled pxf analysis, you can set "Maximum sideband" to 0 in the pxf setup form. This will eliminate the other harmonics which do not provide any additional information (they give the same result, possibly shifted in frequency and mirrored, depending on the freqaxis parameter).

The "Number of harmonics" in the pss setup form does not have any influence on the result (if you use the "Shooting" Engine, which you should do for jitter analysis). It is only used to set the number of harmonics available for display when you want to look at the result of the pss analysis in the frequency domain.
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Frank Wiedmann
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Re: convert noise to jitter
Reply #24 - Nov 5th, 2008, 12:43am
 
Another point that I should probably add is that the random jitter due to device noise has a Gaussian distribution and the simulated jitter value is the standard deviation or rms (root mean square) value of this distribution.

The "maximum random jitter" depends on the percentage of events in which this value may be exceeded (often defined as bit error rate) and is usually some multiple of the standard deviation. For example, if you look at the figure in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jitter, you can see that in 0.3% of the cases, the jitter will exceed ±3 times the standard deviation. For lower values of the bit error rate (BER), see for example the table in http://www.sigcon.com/Pubs/edn/RandomJitter.htm.
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Re: convert noise to jitter
Reply #25 - Nov 5th, 2008, 12:54pm
 
Frank, thanks for your notes. I guess in realistic circuits, the jitter caused by power supply noise seems to be much larger than that by device noise.

In other threads, you noted that the extracted jitter from transient simulation matches well that from 'sampled pxf' analysis considering only power supply noise. For device noise only, have you ever compared the extracted jitter from transient noise simulation to that from 'pnoise' analysis? I am just curious. I noticed that transient noise is much slower than 'pnoise'.
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Re: convert noise to jitter
Reply #26 - Nov 6th, 2008, 2:05am
 
I have also seen pretty good matching with transient noise (if all the settings are correct there). The advantage of pnoise over transient noise is not only that it is often faster but also that you can see where the noise comes from in the Noise Summary.
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Re: convert noise to jitter
Reply #27 - Nov 6th, 2008, 3:56pm
 
Hi Frank. How to start Noise Summay? I tried to find the important noise sources by looking into the noise from each transistor in Results Browser.

Talking about noise sources, is there a way to instruct 'pnoise' to analyze only part of the circuit (the rest assumed noise-free)? Is it possible to do this in transient noise too?
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Re: convert noise to jitter
Reply #28 - Nov 7th, 2008, 12:36am
 
In Virtuoso Analog Design Environment, select Results->Print->Noise Summary.

I don't know of a general way to set the noise of a part of the circuit to zero. However, some components may have parameters that permit setting their noise to zero.
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Re: convert noise to jitter
Reply #29 - Nov 8th, 2008, 10:38am
 
Frank, thanks for your kind and patient help.
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