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Simulate Phase noise DLL (Read 767 times)
Nico67
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Re: Simulate Phase noise DLL
Reply #15 - Aug 18th, 2004, 7:44am
 
In Pnoise simulation where did I use the value of tc?

Are you sure that the phase noise of the VCDL is the same of a divider, because the noise is add in one clock period and when a new clock came then the noise is noun.

I have see in a these the expression J=(To/2pi)^2 * integ(Sn)

This is very important because I'm in training stage and you're the only persons to help me.

Thank
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Frank Wiedmann
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Re: Simulate Phase noise DLL
Reply #16 - Aug 18th, 2004, 8:03am
 
Set Noise Type to timedomain, enter a large number for Noise Skip Count (or 0 for Number of Points), select Add Specific Points and enter the value of tc there.
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Nico67
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Re: Simulate Phase noise DLL
Reply #17 - Aug 18th, 2004, 8:11am
 
Thank frank,

tc is the value to the beginning of the curve obtained with PSS or the value absolute of the beginnig of the signal
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Frank Wiedmann
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Re: Simulate Phase noise DLL
Reply #18 - Aug 18th, 2004, 8:22am
 
tc is the time where you want to measure the jitter, usually the time where the signal crosses the theshold level of the following stage. You have to find tc by performing a PSS analysis. Then you activate the Pnoise analysis for the following simulation run, while leaving all parameters of the PSS analysis unchanged (so that tc will not change).
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Nico67
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Re: Simulate Phase noise DLL
Reply #19 - Aug 18th, 2004, 11:47pm
 
Ok i have do the pnoise simulation

Now I make Results-Direct plot - PSs

In PSS results I choose tdnoise and what is the frequency to choose?
When I plot I have timeindex=0 and I think that is timeindex=tc?

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Frank Wiedmann
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Re: Simulate Phase noise DLL
Reply #20 - Aug 19th, 2004, 2:01am
 
Select tdnoise, Integ Output Noise, Total Noise and Magnitude. Set Start Frequency to 0 and Stop Frequency to f0/2, where f0 is the frequency of your PSS analysis. The result will be the square root of equation (55), which you only have to divide by dv(tc)/dt according to equation (54) in order to obtain the jitter.

Your sweep range in the Pnoise analysis should also be from 0 (or a very low frequency) to f0/2. If you have 1/f noise in your devices, you should probably use a logarithmic sweep where a lower limit of 0 is not possible.

Regarding the timeindex: If you entered a large value for Noise Skip Count, you should have for timeindex the values 0 (which you can ignore) and tc (which you entered in Add Specific Points). In this case, you should of course use timeindex=tc.

If you entered 0 for Number of Points, you will only have timeindex=0, which is really timeindex=tc. Any additional points you might have entered will also have a timeindex value that is too low by tc (if tc is the lowest value you entered). This is a bug in SpectreRF that I reported to Cadence some time ago in SR 32827714, it is now handled as PCR 740140.
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« Last Edit: Aug 23rd, 2004, 5:54am by Frank Wiedmann »  
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Nico67
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Re: Simulate Phase noise DLL
Reply #21 - Aug 19th, 2004, 4:40am
 
Ok, I have just one point in the curve is is just ?

I have 5.23m this is possible?

For dv/dt I have 15G , thus J=2ps rms

I'm surprised by this result, this result it is the jitter in all my VCDL or for just one buffer, i have simulate with all my buffer
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Frank Wiedmann
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Re: Simulate Phase noise DLL
Reply #22 - Aug 19th, 2004, 5:39am
 
The result is the jitter of the output signal that you have specified in your Pnoise analysis. This must of course also be the signal that you use to determine tc and dv(tc)/dt.

This simulation gives you the jitter caused by the intrinsic noise of your devices. In practice, you will generally also have other effects that will cause jitter, like for example disturbances on the power supplies or intersymbol interference due to limited bandwidth for data signals.
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Nico67
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Re: Simulate Phase noise DLL
Reply #23 - Aug 19th, 2004, 5:55am
 
In  some thesis about DLL, they calculate the jitter by using the (TO/2pi)^2*Sn . They consider the phase noise in the VCDL like a accumulatimg jitter.

I find like them in dBc/Hz but then I want the jitter in ps I don't obtain the same.

The jitter is accumulating in one period of clock, that why I think I need to use the rule of the analysis of VCO.
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Frank Wiedmann
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Re: Simulate Phase noise DLL
Reply #24 - Aug 19th, 2004, 6:23am
 
A DLL by itself is not an autonomous system, so I do not think that the analysis in section 10 of http://www.designers-guide.com/Analysis/PLLnoise+jitter.pdf applies here. However, the input signal to the DLL might come from a VCO that exhibits accumulating jitter.

Of course, the jitter will generally increase over the length of the delay chain, as described for the case of the ripple counter at the top of page 28. However, this "jitter accumulation" is fundamentally different from the accumulating jitter in an autonomous system like a VCO.
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Nico67
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Re: Simulate Phase noise DLL
Reply #25 - Aug 19th, 2004, 6:44am
 
The thesis are for the DLL use with a edge combiner and in the edge combiner the jitter accumulate in one clock.

I calculate the phase noise in the output of the VCDL maybe the jitter in the beginning or beetween is more important

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Nico67
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Re: Simulate Phase noise DLL
Reply #26 - Sep 3rd, 2004, 12:07am
 
Hello, I use the method with noise type time domain but when I see the results I have the noise in V^2/Hz but for jitter I need to have dBc/Hz.

Thanks for your explication
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Frank Wiedmann
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Re: Simulate Phase noise DLL
Reply #27 - Sep 3rd, 2004, 1:41am
 
Jitter is usually measured in seconds and not in dBc/Hz. I have already explained you how to calulate the jitter in reply #20. You seem to have applied this method correctly in reply #21 (at least, the values look reasonable to me).

As I mentioned in reply #22, there usually exist other effects that will cause additional jitter. In many cases, the jitter caused by device noise is not dominant.
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Nico67
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Re: Simulate Phase noise DLL
Reply #28 - Sep 3rd, 2004, 2:20am
 
I am ok but in the equation (54)

J=squart(var...)/dv/dt the unit are not good for me.

Because J is second

the unit of dv/dt is Volt/second and Squart(...) is V.s^(1/2)

thus J is in s^(3/2)
i thimk


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Frank Wiedmann
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Re: Simulate Phase noise DLL
Reply #29 - Sep 3rd, 2004, 4:37am
 
If you follow the steps given at the beginning of reply #20, you will get a result with a unit of volts. When you divide this by dv/dt, you will get seconds.
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