The Designer's Guide Community Forum

The Designer's Guide Community Forum
https://designers-guide.org/forum/YaBB.pl
Other CAD Tools >> Unmet Needs in Analog CAD >> Any tools for substrate noise simulation?
https://designers-guide.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1199250677

Message started by Terence on Jan 1^st, 2008, 9:11pm

Title: Any tools for substrate noise simulation?
Post by Terence on Jan 1^st, 2008, 9:11pm

Could you recommend any practical tool or methodology for substrate noise analysis?
I heard that Assura RF(previously, SubstrateStorm) will create a huge netlist
which is difficult for simulation. Any other tools or methodology? Thanks!

Regards,
Terence

Title: Re: Any tools for substrate noise simulation?
Post by Paul on Feb 9^th, 2008, 2:27pm

Hi Terence,

I assume SubstrateStorm is kind of a de-facto standard in the mixed-signal field, but it seems to be a major topic of academic research... Try to search the web, there is a number of links you may find useful, like:
http://mtlweb.mit.edu/researchgroups/icsystems/subnoise

You may also want to visit the web site of Coupling Wave Solutions (http://www.cwseda.com), a recent start-up focusing on signal integraty, co-founded by F. Clement, one of the brains behind the development of SubstrateStorm.

Paul

Title: Re: Any tools for substrate noise simulation?
Post by ci on Aug 3^rd, 2008, 8:08pm

Most commercial tools do a good job at extracting the substrate parasitics from the completed layout; however, there are a variety of noise coupling mechanisms involving besides the substrate also the chip power grid and signal interconnects, pins, package, package-PCB interface, and PCB. Depending on the specific application, the substrate coupling may not be the dominant mechanism, and in these cases using a very accurate substrate extraction tool will actually give results far from what it will happen in the fabricated chip.

Bottom line is that a tool is only a tool and the applicability and limitations need to be decided only after understanding the noise coupling mechanisms in that particular application.

Another simulation tool is ChipQuake, developed by NoiseCoupling.com. This is a simple tool that estimates the noise coupling on the chip+package+PCB in the prelayout stages of the design flow. A fully functional free version comes with a noise coupling book also published by NoiseCoupling.com. That book has a very detailed presentation (three chapters) of the noise coupling mechanisms on the combined chip/package/PCB structure. More details about the ChipQuake tool, datasheet download, and book description and sample sections can be found at the NoiseCoupling.com web site www.noisecoupling.com

ci

Title: Re: Any tools for substrate noise simulation?
Post by loose-electron on Jan 25^th, 2010, 4:39pm

agree with ci here - the term "substrate noise" gets applied to any "noise phenomena" which is not readily understood.

90% of the time it's not substrate noise but capacitive/inductive coupling, ground or power rail noise, coupling to bias lines or similar.

Before I would waste time on substrate modelling tools I would take a good hard look at the noise characteristics and problems of the circuits first, and the architecture of the system

Give this a read:
http://effectiveelectrons.com/JerryTwomey.htm

Go there and grab the pdf's of the noise articles.